Episode 11 / In Conversation
/by Roj Whitelock
London-based photographer and HSM Associate Member
Shawn Gann - Voice Over Artist and Actor, Texas USA
Nikki Dixon - Actor, Writer, Director and Local SAG-AFTRA President, Texas USA
Jordan Fraker - Headshot Photographer, Texas USA
Dwayne Brown - Founder Headshots Matter, Ottawa Canada
In this Episode, Views From The Nest connects with the US and Canadian market to gain insights for actors from across the Atlantic. The group discuss a wide range of topics, including how COVID-19, the writers’ strike and other key events have shaped the acting landscape in the US. The American Headshot - in a globalized world, do headshots in America differ significantly from Europe? And how is AI impacting the industry today?
Note: View on YouTube for captions.
"I don't want to sit at a desk my whole life, hammering out code and being middle management. Those are the things I did as a survival job. I was a database administrator coming up for a decade while I tried to make my way in this industry. I don't want AI to take away the thing that I strived for. Art, the expression of us being people, that should not be the thing we take away from ourselves."
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DescriptionIn Conversation with:
Shawn Gann - Voice Over Artist and Actor, Texas USA
Nikki Dixon - Actor, Writer, Director and Local SAG-AFTRA President, Texas USA
Jordan Fraker - Headshot Photographer, Texas USA
Dwayne Brown - Founder Headshots Matter, Ottawa Canada
I'll start myself. My name's Roj Whitelock. I'm a headshot and portrait photographer uh and associate of of Headshots Matter. Um and uh yeah, I'm based in London in the UK. Okay. I'm Jordan Fraker. I'm also an associate photographer with Headshots Matter. I'm a Dallas headshot and portrait photographer. Um and um yeah, I'm very uh delighted to be here and to get to talk with these amazing actors. Nikki. Uh hi, I am Nikki Dixon. I am an actress, uh writer, producer, director in uh based in Dallas, Texas. I'm also the DFW local SAG-AFTRA President. Um I will be uh starting my second term uh for that in September. So thank you. Thank you. Um so yeah, I am delighted to be here as well. Thank you. Brilliant. Thank you. And Shawn, I'm Shawn Gann. I am a voice and casting director and voiceover artist and theatrical performer and performer in general based out of Dallas, Texas. Best known for works like Kaiju Number Eight and the Apothecary Diaries and I've been a theater maker and creator in DFW since 1999. Thank you. And Dwayne, do you want to just do a quick intro for the Yeah, of course. So, my name is Dwayne Brown and I'm the founder and community curator of Headshots Matter. I'm also a commercial corporate photographer in Ottawa, Canada and I've been doing that for a super long time. uh a little over 40 years and uh I um I'm very pleased to sort of uh um see what Roj has uh has going here with uh this uh engagement and uh and uh Q&A. So thank you. Brilliant. Thank you, Dwayne. So yeah, I think this content today is going to be really interesting for the UK audience. Um, there's a big crossover between, you know, acting roles in the in the US and the UK. I was talking to an agent quite recently that are based in both London and New York. Um, and I was chatting to them about, you know, how if you're a UK actor looking to break into the US market and vice versa, how does that work? So I think the the first thing to chat about that would be really interesting is what that acting landscape in the US looks like right now. You know what is the market like if you like we've had covid, we've had the the writers' strike. You know there have been these big events that have taken place. So it'd be really interesting just to understand from Shawn, Jordan and Nikki what you how would you describe that landscape if an actor in the UK or the US is looking to break into it. What does that landscape look like? I I guess I will start um the um so there was as you said covid then the writer strike and then the actor strike and I still don't think that we have recovered fully from it. Um the last few years have been very um tight with auditions and um with just productions in general. I think people are still scared. They're not sure what everything what everything even means, right? I think with the onset of all the streaming platforms and stuff like that, there's so much stuff that's out there that I mean, nobody knows where anything is going to land. Um, a lot of uh series regulars, those that used to do series regulars are now doing guest stars. So, those of us that were in guest star land are getting the push back down to co-star land. So, there's just so much stuff that's still just kind of just in the air. Um, my manager has actually said out of LA, he's like, "This is the craziest I've ever seen this industry." So, it's just tough right now. Okay. Um, Shawn, mine's a bit of a two-parter. Coming up through the industry, pre-covid, you know, the pay and access and in-person stuff obviously was on the up and up. And when covid happened, everything shut down except for in my industry of voiceover. It was actually a boon, especially in anime. We're a $30 billion a year industry. And we had a backlog of titles that we could continue to pump out and remote recording became prevalent during that period. I am sitting in the advent of covid right now. uh this was an investment I made immediately and uh during that period you know I felt obviously uh isolated and disconnected from the world but through voice over I was connected to my entire industry and it was a bit of a boon for me and a boon for the voiceover industry and then coming out of covid the voiceover industry started to kind of like close in on itself uh a lot of places are a little bit more tight want more in-person stuff I'm I'm a big advocate for remote work as far as commercial and uh on camera stuff. Uh the pay has never been the same. Uh my engagement with it has kind of gone down significantly and people that were very big in that field uh who also crossed over into voiceover uh decided not to be as much a part of that as they are now voiceover. It's just easier to audition. It's easier to record and you know I can do it in my PJs, you know, for the most part. And uh theatrically speaking, I don't think we've ever recovered and it may be many years before we recover. And things keep happening that are kind of stying the comeback of theater, especially uh in the current climate of our administration and how funding is going and where that funding is being taken from. So, it's it's up and down and it's a weird it's a weird thing. And of course the advent of like uh VTubers and a lot of like the podcasting that's been going on like uh where you're getting your entertainment from and how you're gaining income from that entertainment. It's just all over the place. And I think uh the people that really benefit the most are voiceover people and uh influencers really people who seek engagement that way. So Jordan and Nikki, you both touched on something there which has been an issue certainly in the UK industry, which is this kind of um tension I suppose between television and streaming you know kind of traditional channels and streaming channels and what we've seen in the UK is that the budgets on productions have become tighter, the number of roles available in you know traditional TV channels, TV series has reduced um and streaming is kind of sucking up a lot of that, you know, budget, viewer attention, and it's it's kind of harder to get a role in a TV production. A lot of people actually working in TV now on the production side are, they're all freelance, you know, so there are very, very few permanent jobs in TV production now. Um and it feels very kind of tenuous in the UK. And as you were saying, Shawn, you know, things haven't, they're nowhere near back to where they were um sort of prior to 2019. Do do you both feel that there is a strong parallel between what's happening in the UK and the US from what we've said so far? Yeah. I mean I think so. I think the industry is the industry, right? Like I don't I mean yeah we have a whole big ocean in between us but I think at the end of the day it's um it it's the industry overall that just really took a hit. Um and it it seems to me and what I'm seeing as well is that a lot of productions that were here are actually going out of the states and going elsewhere. So there's a lot of stuff that's filming in, you know, the UK. But I mean, you know, y'all have some really good actors! Y'all over there. Y'all y'all put in the work! You know, we over here, we we trying to skate by, you know, y'all come over here and I'm like, they're British. I'm like, are you kidding me? Yeah. They're bringing, they're bringing over British actors to do American accents a lot more often. Oh, really? These days. Yeah. More so than the other way around. I'm like, come on. I can go over there. I can do a little bit of the accent, you know? Just like I could do that, you know, but um I just, I feel like the industry is the industry. I don't know if there's really a um really a divide in as far as what's happening across the board, across the world. And I'm just hoping that at some point we do come out of it. Well, there's certainly more funding there's certainly more funding uh in the UK for the arts um than there is here. Um and you know speaking about what you know kind of Shawn was talking about with how some of the funding has dried up here based on some um odd decisions uh by our administration. Um we've, we here in Texas have recently gotten a a boost of funding. It's kind of unclear from what I can tell from my perspective as a photographer working with people in this industry. It's unclear as to how that will all get allocated, but I will say here in Dallas, we have a really unique industry and I think you know Nikki and Shawn are two perfect people to bring on because we do have a really strong um you know commercial um industry here. We also have a at one point was a little bit bigger, but it's kind of I think from what I can tell it's getting there again. Um film and television industry and the voice acting industry here. I mean this is one of the hearts of the industry is right here in Dallas and I think it is an extremely fast growing industry as far as um actors coming in, projects being made and fans. That there are so many rabid fans. Um, and from my perspective again as a photographer, I do see some struggle happening, but I also see the demand for good quality branding and headshots exploding upward because I think it's because of the online-ness of everything now. um that actors can kind of be their own, you know, brand ambassadors and not just acting. And I think a lot of people are finding um joy in representing themselves in an authentic way, whether that be the head shot that they use for auditions as well as, you know, actor branding, which is becoming a much bigger um there's more demand for actor branding. Um, and it's been a really exciting time for me personally. Um, I'm having so much fun working with these actors here in Dallas because there's such a wide variety of actors that approach me. Yeah. And I'm Jordan's biggest advocate. I don't know. I might be the biggest advocate. It's hard. I I have business. I don't know. Oh, you know, I teach I teach um acting classes um on Monday nights and I have like four people that are going to be contacting you. So, a thank you. Yeah. Um can I ask you a question based on that actor uh actors doing their own kind of brand and ambassadorship? How do agents feel about that? Do they feel that that you know they're relinquishing that kind of creative control over to actors or has it always been like that? Has in regards to how you will want to um present yourself uh creatively from a a brand perspective. Well, I will say from my perspective, again, I'll stop saying that eventually, but um, from what I can tell, yes, there. So, you have agents and then you have managers. Yeah. and they I think the layman doesn't quite know and even I really don't fully know um how different those things can be as far as what their roles are. But agents don't particularly, some agents do uh they'll throw some kind of editorial style portraits on the website on the agent profile but they're not submitting those for auditions at all. Right. Just headshots. And that's because of casting director taste more than anything. And taste, as we all know, can evolve. So that's just where we're at right now. But I do think that actors and especially in voice, they can kind of punch their own ticket as far as what they use at the during like con circuit, like what they print out and sign for their fans, um, and how they advertise themselves online is totally partitioned and separate from what their agent does. And a lot of voice actors don't even need an agent. I mean, Shawn may disagree with me, but um yeah, I'd be curious to hear what Shawn and Nikki have to say about this because I do think that actors because of this age of social media do have a little more autonomy to kind of do some things on their own outside of what their agent requires for them. Jump on what Jordan said there. I went through the majority of my career without an agent uh for voiceover. I had representation for film, camera, you know, commercial stuff, but my voiceover career was self-managed and uh I did rather well with that. And the editorial stuff is right on because we can build our personality out of that. And I think if you're at a certain point in your career where a lot of what you do is brand management and getting out and engaging with fans and you're behind a microphone the whole time. So it really doesn't matter what you look like. I mean I would say with the advent of VTubers that kind of the big thing is that they don't show their face, right? They have this image that's up that moves and it's all it's evolved almost fully animated. So, um, going out and being able to make your personality shine is a better way to connect with your audience as far as a one-on-one basis. Now, if you're starting out in your career and you are looking to connect with casting agents and you're looking to kind of be somebody people want to work with, yeah, you're going to follow uh more of the kind of old standard rules because you're going to want to break in. You want to make an impression on the people who are gatekeepers. But as far as my career and my last conversation with Jordan on my headshot, I was like, I don't really care what agents and managers think about what I want to do. I know what my brand is. I know what will get people excited about the work that I do and uh get me into the market. And my market now is more about appearances, uh more about directing, and more about education. So, it's whatever image I want to put forward. And it works really well for myself. And Shawn, you I guess because it's voice, you can be where you are now, but you could be working on gigs that are anywhere in the world, I guess, right? Oh, absolutely. Um, as far as kind of going back a little bit on the UK, US divide on acting. It's not a I think the market is what it is, but there is that ocean and there is the divide and there is that location bias and an us versus them sort of mentality, especially in a very competitive market, right? Uh during the video game strike that just just barely wrapped up, uh studios uh were heading overseas to the UK to do video game work. we were losing a lot of studios here and I doubt many of those studios come back. So, you know, the UK saw a little bit of a benefit from that, but also on our end, we're like, "Oh, the UK, why are they taking our work?" And it's like, well, it's kind of on us. You know, studios don't have to be adherent to uh especially foreign studios don't have to be adherent to our union. They just want the stuff done. So, you know, while we're sitting here bickering trying to figure out our market and how we negotiate with people, the risk is losing some business. And that's what that's exactly what happened. And when that stuff happens, that kind of muddies the water on like, you know, where the work's going, who's benefiting from it and what not. But also from the voiceover perspective, I can connect to everybody. I directed a show where I was recording um you know, uh a YouTuber uh Sea Dog out of Japan, Tokyo, and people out of North Carolina, out of Canada, uh Seattle. And mostly my connections are either within Texas, LA, or New York. But for you know the right project and what we're what we need to do I can go all over the world to make it happen. That's uh that's that's very cool. Yeah. Thanks. I think um an interesting point to pick up on which kind of leads into the the next question as well is that it's that democratization of the process. So it's it's never been easier to to get a photo taken. It's never been easier to record a a self tape at home. It's never been easier to get content out there. But I think what we're seeing is that is just now raising the bar all the time. So if anyone can take their own headshot, if anyone can record a little self tape at home, how do you stand out from that crowd? And it it's to do with the quality and having your marketing looking better, being more professional, you know, to Shawn's point, more on brand for you personally. So, I think we're seeing this kind of this, this need to to raise the bar across actors marketing to get that stand out. And to that point, how much of a difference is there do you think between, and this might be a good one, Jordan, for you to begin with? How much of a difference is there between a US headshot and a UK headshot? Or is that a completely false question? And actually is it just about who you are and what you need to project as an individual um and it boils down to you know it's a cultural thing that I think um British artistic taste is it's more sophisticated. I think it's based in it's based in an appreciation for fine art and I think American um taste is based in an appreciation for commercial art. Um, and that is I mean I'm I'm really pushing maybe a little bit by saying that. I don't think that that's applicable across the board, but I I do think, you know, fundamentally I think American headshots um American actor headshots for auditions are kind of almost photos of who the actor can be. And I and I think a British actor head shot is is a really artfully for a lot of the uh great uh actor headshots in in the UK that I follow. It's an artfully crafted um fine art portrait of the actor. It's almost like a portrait of the artist as opposed to it's almost them in a sort of one way there's very few smiles. um you know a commercial a British commercial actor headshot is kind of just a very subtle pleasant expression but here in LA and New York and Atlanta like the coastal kind of markets they're straight up going super charactery. They're getting they're wearing nurse scrubs or putting their hairs in pigtails and overalls and going like ah like in a photo. And here in our market in Dallas, we haven't quite succumbed to the kit of that. I think our agents and our casting directors still are trying to kind of hold on to some sort of maturity about that. But because there are so many actors in LA and New York and Atlanta now these actors have to stand out and that's how they stand out. And I think in in the UK they are trying the actors are trying to stand out and I think that the photographers are trying to stand out but perhaps there's just a little more artistic integrity. And I'm really like crapping all over our industry by saying all this, but I I just I think that um it it's a matter of them following what they believe works. The industry kind of dictates what works and what doesn't. And you know, everything like this just evolves. And that's just kind of where I think we're at right now as far as the difference between the two the two nations and how they do it. I I have a kind of a perspective kind of more of a a layman's perspective and not headshot photographer perspective. My wife and I, we watch a lot of programming that comes out of the UK um that's streamed on BritBox. So, lots of kind of crime drama stuff. And all of the actors that we're seeing, it feels like they're not even wearing makeup. like they're so they're such characters and they're and they're very approachable and they're very I don't know gritty and if you watch anything that kind of comes out of whether it's streamed or filmed out of the US there's a little more polish a little more I don't know polish would just be the way to say so I guess if if if each of the actors markets are pursuing each of those markets that they're kind of telling the that that best story. So, yeah, I think it's Yeah, they're they're considered different and and from our perspective with Headshots Matter, we see a dramatic difference between uh American um headshot photographers versus European, it's uh yeah, considerably different. It's it's quite exciting actually. It's uh it's pretty fun. I wonder if a photographer in the US that takes a little more of a that European kind of approach could not help their actors stand out. I wonder what what do you think Shawn and and Nikki of how the actor is presented? What what do you think? Could it be a bit different? I mean, I I mean, I will say I I have not studied enough to know the difference between a UK photographer. I'm so interested in it now, and I will I will be going to look to see um and I will be like, Jordan, hey, can we try? You know what I'm saying? Like, that's one thing I love about Jordan. He is so quick to play and he's so like just wants to try things and and just so open to just everything. But yeah, I mean if that is something that we can bring here that will yeah make us stand out more or even give us that oh well maybe they're European let call them in because they're better actors. Um you know so I I think it's just it's um I I mean I think it would be wonderful just even just look at it and and just to see the comparison myself. Nikki, do you do you agree though that um from your perspective, even just from a general sense, that um that American actors in this industry as far as like what they seek in headshot does have kind of a commercially driven polished look like Dwayne was saying cuz I I agree with that. I think I think it is like there's a polish to the to the way they should look like they shouldn't look overly gritty. I think and it's not it's not for any reason other than I think casting directors just kind of have their taste because the agent is trying to cater to the casting director, right? And they're trying to do that because they want their talent to get booked. And it's not that casting directors are, you know, uptight and stuck in their ways. It's just it's it's it's their perception of what they can see from a two-dimensional facsimile of a person, of an actor, what they can see about that actor through that image. And if if the photographer isn't speaking the language the way that reaches the casting director, then the casting director's got all these photos they're flipping through. Mhm. So, it's that's what the photographer is trying to do is we're trying to bonk them over the head and have them go. Okay, let's put that aside. Right. Touched base on it earlier, too. Uh the aesthetic choices between the two countries, and this is me coming from a perspective of not being born in the US. I actually am a Filipino and worked in Asia and Europe uh in my youth. But, uh, it's I think it's a cultural thing. Uh, in the UK, acting, art, uh, theater in general, that's an academia thing. Everyone's kind of brought up on it. There's a drive to be proficient in it. Everybody's kind of on the same page and kind of has a background in it that they can all reference. You know, they all kind of go through the same streams. in the US. Uh acting, being famous, being on camera, that's a that's an achievable dream for anybody without education, without any experience, anyone thinks they can do it and anyone and people have the dream to try it. So what they see in front of them media-wise is what they consume and what they want to be a part of. So whether they're very internet based and they see YouTubers and VTubers doing their thing or if they are watching a lot of television and seeing a lot of, you know, uh, NYPD or CSI or any of that kind of stuff, you know, the kind of procedural stuff or if they're seeing like big Marvel movies, those are the things that really influence them and there's no real educational basis for why they want to be in there. Some then choose to go to like a Meisner school or a Stannislovski school or go to get some theatrical training or some camera training, but I think that overseas a lot of that starts at a more elementary level and then builds up through, you know, primary school and stuff and then collegiate and it's just like a a stronger path. So there's a greater sense of what those shots should be or how you should present yourself and how you should go about the business. Here it's the wild west. So this last question, it's it's a big it's a big issue and I think everyone's going to have a quite a strong take on on this, but obviously it's the impact of of AI. Um, and I think there are there are two aspects to this. There's the whole question around should actors be representing themselves with AI? Should they should they be using AI generated headshot? Um, again, you know, talking about that democratization of the process, it's very easy to take a selfie on phone and then create, you know, those looks that Jordan was talking about. Here I am as a nurse, here I am as a business person. It's the kind of thing that AI, you know, can do reasonably well, let's say. So I think there's a discussion there around does AI have a place in the world of headshots. And then the second element is around the impact of AI on the the industry more widely. What is that starting to look like and how do actors need to navigate that? What kind of things should they be thinking about? So there's two aspects to it. Um, AI headshot, yes or no? And what is the impact that AI is having on the industry? How do actors need to to equip themselves to to deal with that? Um, so I'd love to start with you, Nikki, if that's okay. No. So, short answer, no, absolutely not. um on the uh AI headshot. Um it's lazy and it's um cheap and it's um it does a disservice to the artists who are photographers. It is a craft. Um it is and and it should be treated as such. So, no, I think that um you know the advent of it I mean it it's like it's just so lazy that I mean I think that's what it I mean it boils down to for me and um yeah sure you can turn yourself into a nurse or whatever but it still looks fake like it's not even you know you don't have that life in your eyes that you get from an actual photographer and you don't get that energy that that photographer pulls out of you whenever you're in session. you know, you got the music going, you got whatever going, and you know, you're posing, you're moving, you're flowing. And so, no, you just going to take a picture and be like, "Okay, let me just upload this and turn myself into a doctor or whatever." Um, lazy. So, no. Um, as far as with um how it's the the landscape right now, I don't even I don't even know. It's like we put it we tried to put in the protections that we could from a SAG-AFTRA perspective in the new contract to protect actors from AI usage, right? Because there's so much stuff that can be done like all these deep fakes. Like you take somebody's face and I mean I think Taylor Swift had something happen or or uh Scarlett Johansson, somebody had something happen to where they, you know, it was a deep fake of their face on this thing and it's just it's it's really scary to be honest. Um and again I also think it's lazy for filmmakers to to go and just use AI instead of using an actor who can actually emote um truly emote instead of having you know somebody some robotic whatever whatever um come in and do the work. Now, yes, there is a place for it in some instances where maybe, you know, there's a huge stunt that needs to be done and instead of, you know, risking the life of the actor or the stunt performer, um, which kind of sucks for stunt performers, right? But if it's something that's just hugely dangerous, I could see the desire to do it. Um, but a stunt performer is also a performer and they need to make a living too. So if they want to be the ones to jump off this cliff into this water, you know, it's on them. But if you know I but ultimately my answer is no to AI. Um, no in writing anything, right? You know there are people doing ChatGPT writing scripts. No, there are writers who need to write. They know the human experience. Be human. Let's keep it human. So that's my feeling. I think there's also that which you touched on when you you spoke about, you know, the experience of being in a shoot and actually working with the photographer and that energy in the room. And it's kind of there's almost a decision here around what kind of life do we actually want to lead? you know, do we want to just be sitting in front of a key keyboard prompting an AI or do we want to be in a room together creating with other human beings and, you know, sharing that energy and that collaboration? I think that's a huge decision, but I'm not sure if we're being given the chance to make it actually. That's it starts from a huge like philosophical point before we even get to uh photography or making anything. One, as AI stands right now, it's an environmental disaster, right? So, uh the usage of it is unethical to begin with. On paper, AI is like any other technology. It's meant to alleviate the burden of automation and the stress and work of humans doing these things. It's not meant to steal the creative aspects and the things that personally and specifically make us human. So why would I want to give that aspect of myself up? Why would I want to give any part of my art up to a machine, to an algorithm? Because it is just an algorithm. No matter how smart or intuitive or how you communicate with it or what it can produce, it is an algorithm based on all the information that's put out there. And because it can process at trillions and trillions of bytes per second and you know just mass massively hit servers and use water and you know just tear up our environment. I don't I don't see it as a feasible thing for anything as basic as art. It should I see a benefit for it in the medical field when they're trying to figure out things and trying to save lives. I understand it when they're trying to like, you know, streamline automation for manufacturing and uh pieces like that or trying to figure out like travel things and make things safer, but for it to take away the things that make us specifically human, the human experience, it's a non-starter for me, right? I don't um I don't believe in it. I don't want to sit at a desk my whole life, you know, uh hammering out code and being middle management or any of those things. Those are the things I did as a survival job. You know, I was a database uh administrator coming up for a decade while I tried to make my way in this industry. I don't want AI to take away the thing that I strived for. And I know that technology often makes jobs irrelevant. That's kind of the point. You know, as manufacturing goes up, like certain jobs disappear. But art, the expression of us being people, that should not be the thing we take away from ourselves. And uh as Nikki said, it's lazy. Um the oxymoron of an AI artist is moronic to the extreme and it just gets my blood pressure up whenever we talk about the usage of it, right? I um even from a corporate perspective on corporate headshots my wife works at Geico and they've looked at all the headshots that have come through that facility and even at the executive level people who have like who are layman to the photography field are like oh that looks awful this is obviously AI like their eye can catch it and if their eye as untrained you know um professionals can catch those things we as professionals can see it clear as day and sticks out like a sore thumb and it's even offensive. So, uh yeah, before I get too too much further on my soap box, um AI is uh is wretched and it's invaded the voiceover space as well. Uh I've seen dubbing uh where like certain Chinese uh Dongwa animation, they use AI across the board on it and it was awful. uh the video game industry was on strike for 10 plus months over the very notion of AI protections and I think the problem especially uh with representation is that there is a disingenuous approach to it. those uh a lot of our representatives in that uh space had tie-ins to AI industries and businesses and so they had a conflict of interest and it just becomes this battle when you you mentioned it earlier about like do we even have a choice in all of this you know it benefits as most things do in our uh capitalist society it benefits the 1% of us who have already made it who have a huge backlog of stuff you know uh just use Bill Murray as an example. He can sell his image and his AI and make make a living for his estate and his people for forever and ever and ever. But that still takes away jobs from people who are coming into the industry later on. You know where we need to move and grow and let things be and have the human experience and there we go. Yeah. No, that I think the environmental side as well is something which is is not talked about enough and you know every time I see someone you know publish on LinkedIn here's me as a little plastic doll in a plastic case that I've I've created with chat GPT and I just sit and think well that's you know the resources that have gone into creating that piece of ephemera which will now sit on servers for you know lord knows how many years consuming even more resources. It it just feels like a kind of vicious cycle of resource consumption for for no that's literally the only point you can make to somebody uh who doesn't understand AI in general. If you can bring up the environmental impact and actually show the statistics and what's going on. That's the only thing that gives like a casual pause, right? Not everybody is about the environment or preservation of it, but like it is astounding. Like I mean I'm not the best environmentalist in the world. I'm not out there, you know, fighting the good fight or anything like it, but I can see that it is outrageous. So my thoughts on AI are um pretty complicated um in that we have all been using AI for a while. We use a lot of different types of AI as far as if we're talking about intelligent software that helps us do the things that we want to do. Um, you know, I mean, AI powered is like the buzzword for like everything now. You know, everything is powered by AI and it's not really. It's just you updated your software to do a little more than it did before. And you know, I saw a car commercial that said, you know, AI powered blah blah blah. And it's like, but this is not that different than what it was before. To me, there are a lot of different things that are AI. I mean, we use as photographers, we use Photoshop. And I mean, this is that is an artificial intelligent, you know, software program. We use Photoshop. I we could get in there in Microsoft Paint and try to manipulate the pixels, I guess, one at a time. But yeah, we're we have a goal, right? And as artists, as as craftsman, we're trying to like get things looking the way they want. My issue is just from a fundamental standpoint, we're just the the generation the generative nature of these these AI generative images is unethical to steal the look. This look didn't just come out of a vacuum. This look, these looks were created by people that were, you know, holding cameras and making decisions and then selecting images and then showing them. Um, that's the issue to me is it's the it's the stealing of the work uh of of an unnamed faceless artist out there and then homogenising it all together for the sake of just living a frictionless life where we don't have to learn a skill and we don't you know that's I mean that's really the issue is AI is just as everything starts as our intention goes towards living a frictionless life. We just will become uninterested in learning these new skills, these artistic skills, and the and then this art will just be there for us to enjoy. And I'm just not convinced that we're going to enjoy a life like that. You know, the art will never evolve, right? Art is always evolving. And if we solely rely on AI and conjure up everything that's ever happened and put it in AI and decide to, you know, exist off of that, there is no evolution by beyond that point, right? The art is what it is and it only learns to the capacity of what it can be fed, right? So there needs to be the next, you know, Leibovitz, there needs to be the next, you know, Picasso that rolls up that changes the genre that, you know, finds another step. uh AI can only go so far as where we are already at. Um I'm going to say a couple of things from you know our perspective from uh managing uh the project Headshots Matter is um and from a photographers's perspective that's been doing this for a long time. Um I think authenticity matters greatly. um I don't know maybe greatly isn't even enough to say but um uh to a photographer needs to be part of the process whether that's a cinematographer whether that's a still photographer we as human beings who have figured out the craft of how to use this uh this box this camera and lighting but more importantly how do we react to um a person in front of us how does that person in front of us react to us. How do we calm them? How do we inspire them? The subtleties on how it's like what Nikki said, like the subtleties of how an actor or a corporate person reacts to Jordan or someone else on the other side of the camera. It's it's magical and it can be seen. You can you can identify it. So I think whether or not people want AI headshot or photography or not or whether companies want to do it or not, I think it's not going to fly as well as authenticity. I think authenticity will always win. Um maybe that's naive of me, but I do honestly believe it. Um, so I I don't really see it it impacting headshots at least. I think the film industry, yeah, that's a little scary, but how we can use AI to help us with the post-p production and how we I I love how you put it to uh Jordan about, you know, we've learned to craft using some of the tools, the post-production tools to help us with that craft is is been helpful with AI, but to create the actual base image, it's it's kind of magic. It's uh it's really hard to put your finger on. It's hard to articulate. It's hard to teach. It's hard to learn. It's just it's experiential learning. Um I really believe that we're we're going to have that uh for a long time uh and hopefully ever. No, Jordan, I mean, I think it you'd be surprised at how many um a AI generated headshots I've seen online on social media. Just Nikki, you hit it on the head. It's lazy. It is plain lazy and it's it's cheap and it's and it's a and it's not a well thought out uh um approach. It really isn't. Yeah. I mean I understand you know sometimes the artists who are they're starving. We're starving artists sometimes me is not you know the money's funny and their change is strange. So I mean they I guess make do with what they can do at that time. Sure. But you know I I feel that you know after a while you know if this is really what you want to do this is your craft you need to invest in some good shots and invest in yourself and in that you just need to start saving your money and if it takes you six months fine use what you have at the time but save that money to go get somebody to take some really good shots to get to so that you can see your essence not the essence of this generative machine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Compliment people like Jordan. I was just going to say that like just going off my shots alone. I could not conjure that in my head. I could not imagine creating that dynamic and the layering and the colors and the choices that were made. I can tell AI, hey, I want a good picture and I want to look good in a suit. But what we did dramatically and what we did aesthetically, those are things and personality-wise, those are things I could not have just put into a prompt to make happen for myself, right? I needed the collaboration. I needed somebody to guide me. I needed his help, his expertise. You know, I had a vague idea of the things that I wanted to achieve and he made them, you know, a reality that I would be unable to imagine for myself. My creative partner that I work with in my studio, she she explains it to the people we're photographing, whether it's a headshot or something a little more involved that what we're doing, we're writing a poem and and part of that that writing of a poem, you need life experience. You you need to understand who you're writing it for. Uh what's the story? What's the person that's in you're collaborating with? Like it's so dynamic. So yeah, it it needs to be a human experience. I think you just described the creative process in general. I mean the creative process is a creative process through all mediums. The way it's done and executed changes from medium to medium. But I think what Shawn does is he writes a poem. And I think what Nikki does is she writes a poem. Yes. Um I you know we we're painting pictures. That is what we do is we tell stories and we paint pictures. You know, metaphorically speaking, not all of us paint pictures, but yeah, I think in the industry that we're working in as well, you know, where, you know, with headshots, an actor's portrait specifically where the intention is to show a casting director what somebody looks like and how can they have confidence in that headshot if it's been, you know, AI generated. So, it's not if it's not them, right? Yeah, it's so it's not just about, you know, I I can see authenticity becoming almost a currency in what we do and actually there's a value to that and I can see a situation in which actors are going to be asked to kind of verify that their headshot is authentic and has been photographed rather than generated because, you know, my background, I've been on the other side of the coin and I've cast a lot of people for TV and photo shoots and you know it's the worst thing when somebody walks in the room and they don't look like their headshot and you immediately feel that your time's been wasted. Um so I think there's a real fundamental requirement here um that AI actually just it can't deliver it. It can never be it can never have that the authenticity of a photograph. Well said. I think um there is, so I think that all creative industries have an obligation to gatekeep AI out and it obviously will get better and better and better and the normalisation of it being used will grow as well. like H&M just had a whole um I think campaign or maybe it was all catalog work I don't know but they used all AI models um and so they just had these AI models and they used some software where it put their clothes they had photos done of their clothes by a photographer but then those clothes were put on these AI models and they got a lot of backlash for it and that backlash will need to continue to gatekeep AI out. But as it keeps happening more and more, there will be less and less backlash, thus normalizing all of this. And it needs to be the case for casting directors. They need to there needs to be backlash when an actor has the audacity to submit an AI headshot, but it's already happening. I'm sure. I don't I don't know, but I would assume it is. And so, you know, an agent is a gatekeeper in that sense. A casting director is a gatekeeper in that sense, right? Um, and I do think that the industry is pseudo protected in that sense for photographers. Like there will still be demand for headshots to be the thing that's used that, you know, there needs to be proof positive that the actor can collaborate with someone with a camera in their hand. Um, and you know, it like I said, this is this is a good kind of gatekeeping. It's a buzzword these days, but it that is the only way to really describe it is we gatekeep AI out. Uh you Nikki you mentioned it earlier too beyond the kind of like understanding between you know uh entities in this exchange. It's also dangerous right? Uh people fake things all the time. Uh people it's like falsifying a resume but it's also like falsifying achievements that you've made. There's people that are putting things out there or taking uh other people's art or taking people and putting them into things that you know and it works for good and bad and humor and all sorts of things, but it's still dangerous. It's not regulated. Um and anything uh that has to do with technology should should have some sort of limits and regulations put on them so that you know people are kind of kept safe from uh I don't know multitude of things beyond the PTSD of being exposed online. I like the strong language, Shawn. It is uh, you know, using AI incorrectly or wrongly, it's falsifying. It's plagiarizing. It's it's it's just wrong. So, yeah, there's that uh news article of that uh student that graduated from college and he held up his like laptop that showed he had used ChatGPT to make his way through the entire process. I mean, that is so disingenuous. Like, what did you learn? It literally is making us stupider. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think the, you know, the real value of education is learning how to think for yourself and how to challenge things and challenge ideas and how to ask questions and you know that there is a danger that those skills will be lost. you know that faculty for for critical thinking as well as creative thinking if you're just being the that there have been studies that show that drop off in brain activity when people are just using ChatGPT over and over and over on a regular basis that brains are actually becoming less active and less able to to think for themselves because of this kind of spoon feeding and as you said Shawn you know that they're being everyone's being spoon fed from the same bowl of porridge. Yeah. So, where's where's the new content going to come from? Where where are the new ideas that that are going to create these new recipes? You know, it's just it's just not there. So, it's it's kind of a diminishing return over over time. Overuse it. What is your passion? You know, what do you desire to do? Do you desire to be a charlatan, to be a fake the entire time? What are what are the things that you want to contribute? Like what do you want what stamp do you want to leave on the world? If you use AI and fake stuff the whole time, you left nothing. You know, find your own passion. Yeah. Yeah. In uh 50 years, my grandchildren will will find my little prompt diary. That'll be my legacy.
Okay. Brilliant. All right. Well, I think that's been a a really fantastic discussion. Um, lots of uh really interesting viewpoints there and I I think you know this is going to be hugely useful and um very interesting for for a lot of people when we when we get the content out there on on online. So, uh just want to thank everyone again for for taking part today. Really appreciate it and uh yeah, it's been great to spend some time chatting with you all. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for making this happen, Roj. Yeah, no problem at all. It's a pleasure. No, it's been been absolutely great. Thank you. Really really appreciate it. text goes here
