Episode 15 / Abbie Hills, Founder of Dazey Talent
/by Roj Whitelock
London-based photographer and HSM Associate Member
Abbie Hills, Founder of Dazey Talent, talks openly about the lived experience of cerebral palsy in the entertainment industry, being disability led and diversity focused as an agent and how the industry can do better when it comes to talent with disabilities. Looking back on her career to date, Abbie reflects on what she might have done differently and where her agency is now heading.
Note: View on YouTube for captions.
"...we're still not really at the point where there are just roles and the character happens to be disabled. That's the switch. I think that is when we're going to have true equality and inclusivity...it's not just like, oh, this character is a wheelchair user and their whole narrative surrounds them being a wheelchair user. That's not what we want. We want a character that just so happens to be a wheelchair user." Abby Hills
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Born To Be Creative
I can be a bit of a talker, so I'll try and keep my story shortish. Well, like everybody or most people in the creative industries, I was a very loud creative child. Wanted to be an actor, didn't we all? Kind of throughout my studies I insisted to my parents I had no interest in doing anything other than like drama, art, media, photography. So they didn't even waste their time trying to get me to study anything other than that. So, went through the motions really. Did drama at college, did film at college, then did film at uni, and then all the while kind of networking and hustling and doing student films and just trying to kind of figure out what my role was going to look like in the industry going forward. Did my degree in film and kind of had a penny drop moment that I loved creating, but you know, when you're 18, you got to start at the bottom of the ladder, I suppose. And then something kind of switched in me and I thought - my own internal bias at the time - but I thought I've got cerebral palsy. I'm not going to get hired by anyone to be a production runner. So I did what everybody does when they leave uni and they don't know what to do and I did a masters and then that's kind of what led me into becoming a talent agent.
Go Away And Create Something
So I was six weeks or something into my masters and even getting onto the masters was quite difficult. I applied for one, then I got a phone call saying the masters that you've chosen, we're not running it because you're the only person that applied. And it was something, it was arts management or something like that. And then I found another course actually very close to where I lived in cultural arts management. I thought, "Oh, that sounds like a bit of me." Because basically I wanted to learn business, but I knew that the creative and neurodivergent in me would be absolutely bored to death if I went and just did a business masters. So I started cultural arts management. Six weeks in, we're told we're kind of learning and going to be trained to be a manager of some description. Theatre, art scene, you know, kind of not really film and TV. It didn't really come into it much, but I already had the cogs turning for myself on that one. And our lecturer said, "You're going to learn to be a manager, and at the end, your dissertation is going to be to create a thing." So, somebody put on like a music night with choirs. Somebody did a standard dissertation. Somebody else did an art exhibition I think and I don't know what it was but the penny drop moment hit again and I - these moments I keep having - and I really when those moments come to me I just follow them. I don't really give it much thought. If I have an idea I run with it. I just had the idea to start a talent agency. I don't know. It just made absolutely perfect sense to me. I was like well, I've made films. I know loads of actors. I know loads of people making films all the time. I even, you know, I know production crew that want to get work because I was thinking big at that point. I was like, I could just represent sort of everybody. And then they can all help each other out and it's going to be amazing. It's going to be wonderful. And so that was my my idea that I ran with pretty much straight away. And my lecturer said, "Oh, you know, that's great, but let's learn this and that." And I was like, "Okay, okay." I was working at Laura Ashley at the time as well, part-time. And so I quit, registered on Companies House with the name the Daisy Hills Company, which I've been thinking for a while and I walked into my lecture the following week and I was like did it and that was seven years ago now. So yeah, I just knew all of these talented people and you know being from the New Forest like there's not a whole bunch - there’s a lot of creative people there - but it's not the same as living in London and there's different barriers I suppose. So, in my head when I first started it and I was 23, I was like, I'm gonna take like all of the bits from old Hollywood and the studio systems, the bits that worked, and do it in an ethical way. You know, we can like make films in-house and then the actors can all be on contract and like a grand, grand thing. And then in the start, I've got five clients and I'm pedalling for like music videos and ads for local businesses to get models in there and like grappling for everything that I could. And then there were bigger jobs where they'd say, "Oh, we need camera crew. Oh, but we also need a couple of supporting artists. Oh, do you know a stylist?" And I was like, "Yeah, this is what I'm talking about. This is how it's supposed to be." And it was like that for a long time. And then when covid happened, I kind of just I re-thought about what I was doing and why I was doing it. And a lot of my friends, because they were my friends as well, you know, I was representing my mates to start off with. It's what you do. They either left the industry or went home and we went into lockdown and so I pivoted then because the actor side was growing. I thought I need to shrink in some areas in order to grow in the others. So I made the choice just to to pivot to actors then with a real focus on diverse talent.
You know I live with cerebral palsy so I say that the agency is disability led and diversity focused kind of in whatever that means to somebody. I think like you know there's things that I'm really passionate about and diverse voices and amplifying those voices is one of them but I think, if you've ever faced a barrier then you know I always want to hear about it and I want to see if we can work together. So that's kind of my ethos behind it and I always say to people you could be the best, like you could be an Oscar winning actor - not all agents will say this - but this is, these are my thoughts. You could be an Oscar winning actor, but if you don't have lived experience of diversity, or you're not an ally, I'm not signing you. I'm not interested, you know.
Disability Led and Diversity Focused
Yeah, there’s so many joyous moments. I think my kind of my approach with it is that like every milestone for each client is going to look different, but for me, the excitement and support within that milestone is still the same. Like I've signed clients before who like don't even have headshots and aren't on Spotlight. So for them those first milestones are getting the headshots and getting on Spotlight which we know with both of those things sometimes there's a financial barrier. So, it's like, "Oh, could I, with what they've got, can I get them on like, can I get them a walk on roll in something?" And then they've got the money to get their headshots and get on Spotlight and then they do that and then they have their first audition. Maybe it's for a short and then they book the short and then it goes up and up and up. Or I've got other clients, you know, who are more experienced. They're like, "Oh, I want to book my first feature” or even actually be seen for a feature film. Maybe they haven't been seen for a feature film before. So, it's like, "Right, okay. We do that." And for me, although subjectively they're, you know, they're quite different, like to me, the excitement of that milestone is still the same. And I think something that I've really mastered over the years is kind of adapting to each client that I have. Like, we've all got a really personal relationship. It's why I don't represent hundreds of people because I would not manage to do that alone. But it's really important to me to have that personal relationship. Like, have somebody in your corner. You might not have had somebody in your corner before. You might not have had somebody tell you about initiatives or avenues or ways to get things done because you might not have had access to it before. So for me that's really important and then as a standard, regardless of whether a client has disclosed disability or neurodivergence or anything, I always offer everybody an access rider and to chat through what would your access rider look like? Have you spoken to somebody about your access requirements? That's really important to me to do that.
Experience Shaped By Cerebral Palsy
Yeah, I think I know, so certainly from my - my experience of this industry has absolutely been shaped by the fact that I have cerebral palsy. The journey I've gone on is you know largely to do with the fact that I have cerebral palsy how, you know had I not had cerebral palsy maybe I would have gone straight in and been a production runner. Maybe I would drive. Maybe I would do all of these other job roles. Maybe I'd be a whiz on a sewing machine. maybe I'd be training to be a costume designer, but I have cerebral palsy and this is the way it's gone for me, which I absolutely love. I wouldn't have it any other way. And I think whatever, you know kind of diverse background you're from and the barriers that come with that I think you learn from that and you bring that into your art and you bring it into the kind of projects you want to be part of, or you bring it into the type of headshot session you want to book and the kind of photographer you want to go to or the kind of scripts that you'll read or the kind of events that you'll go to. You know, you have this informed layer that I think people who don't come from diverse backgrounds don't necessarily have.
The Switch That Needs To Happen
There's still not enough disabled talent being hired in film and TV. There's not like, you know, we've seen a slight increase over the past few years, but like as somebody from the community and my friends in the community and my clients as well, like there's been some amazing stuff, but as a landscape, like we're largely unimpressed. And like, you know, for some of my clients, they're still not getting seen for I mean, a few times they have been, but like a lot of casting directors are creating disabled roles, but we're still not really at the point where there's just roles and the character happens to be disabled. That's the switch. I think that is when we have, you know, we're going to have true equality and inclusivity, but we'll be more on the way to it because it's not just like, oh, this character is a wheelchair user and their whole narrative surrounds them being a wheelchair user. That's not what we want. We want a character that just so happens to be a wheelchair user. And it's like, okay, cool. That's just part of them. You know, it doesn't have to be central to the narrative all the time because then, you know, there's harmful stereotypes within that. So, there's been a step in the right direction with a few shows, but it's not to the, the place that we want it to be, I would say.
Yeah, like the bare minimum is not enough anymore, you know? Like if you're casting a commercial and you're doing your like diversity checks and you're like, "Oh, we'll have someone from this background, someone from this background." Like, that's not really enough. Especially when we're thinking about narrative projects as well. We're talking about actors who are, you know, having - I suppose it's different with commercials, right? Because especially if you've got walk-on roles. There's not a great deal of narrative for everybody, but particularly for TV series and films when the character has a story arc of their own and they have a narrative, then I don't think that should just all be about their disability. I don’t. There’s so much more to it, like the relationships they're having, the life that they live, like rather than just all about their disability, like that would do my head in. And I think the times that I've been to auditions over the years, it's weird for me because I have cerebral palsy, but it presents as non-visible. And the amount of times I've been asked to play it up, which a lot of disabled actors have been asked to do that I know about, that I've spoken to, and it's not right.
Decisions Made From Lived Experience
I think they just need more diverse voices in decision- making roles. I think that's the bottom line. Like diverse execs and writers actually as well and you know rather than just a production company having a scheme to bring in new and diverse talent at entry level positions, which is great, but having decision making roles, I think that's the key and that's when you'll start to see real change because these people have lived it. You know, we've lived it. We know what the story should be and we know the types of people that we want to include in our stuff.
Let Go Of Rejection
Do you know younger me was so scared to ask for help or ask questions. I was very much like just blend in, just blend in. Don't tell anyone about your CP. Just blend in and do the job. Not now. Not now. But at the time I was just so reluctant to ever ask for anything that I needed in an access requirement sense, yes - but also just like curiosity about growing in my career. Like I'd always be really apprehensive just to ask for not even a favour, but just some information. And I think just always ask - don’t ask, you don't get. It's what my, you know, it's what I've always kind of grown up being told. And yet we find it so difficult to do that in a career setting. So obviously be polite and approachable and, you know, very rarely in this industry do you get something for nothing. But it’s really great to have the confidence to actually ask questions.
What else would I tell younger me? Oh, don't be so hurt by rejection. The amount of rejections I have faced. Probably everybody in the industry can relate to this. Like I, you know, I've been on Star Now applying for jobs since I was 15 years old. Getting rejected for like, you know, it's 15 years ago now, maybe even younger. Like you know getting rejected when you audition for a role at the school play and you don't get it. Like rejection it can stay with you for such a long time. Just don't let it. You know when you first get that first rejection you'll feel like it's an absolute punch in the face whereas now I feel like it's a tap on the shoulder. And it's like oh you know you have to let it go. Which can be hard as creatives at every level because we're all pitching for stuff right? Even casting directors, directors’ agents - we’re always all pitching And we always get told no as well as yes, but we get told no. So it's really important to not let it sit and stay with you because I know for me for a long time it did and then it brought my mood down and then my motivation went down and you get in this real bad cycle. “I can't do this” and the minute the word can't comes out your mouth that's it. You're in trouble.
And then the third thing…Probably have fun a bit more. I think when I was starting out, and I am a little bit guilty of this now, but I took everything so seriously. Kind of tied into rejection, but you know, it's not life and death. Have a bit more fun. There's jobs I look back on now, I'm like, "Oh, I wish I just I was a bit more present in it." Because I wasn't. I was thinking about what the next day would bring or the task that I had to get done, but actually taking a beat and being like, I'm working on a Hollywood film set at the moment or my client is going to the BAFTAs or you know, like these amazing moments you're supposed to have fun with. And if this is on camera, then I'll have to watch it back and then I'll have to be accountable for myself. So, now I've said it out loud, have more fun. I'm going to listen to that, too.
I mean, I don't know if it's because I just turned 30. I feel like my my perspective has just really shifted. Like I said, my first job in this industry was when I was 15. That's half my life ago. Like I actually think about that now. Like that is a long time. So I have learned a lot along the way. I’ve, you know seven years being an agent just doing the rebrand and now Daisy Talent and having pivoted everything like there's still so much for me to learn. Like you know I bet when I'm 40 and sit here doing one of these things I'll say something totally different. But yeah, I think I think the having fun element is is really important. And I think being able to ask for things - and I actually think since covid when everybody was jumping on Zoom calls and having cups of tea with execs and stuff like that, everyone is a lot more receptive now. So I think just shoot your shot I think, they can always say no. Just be polite, be decent.
Dazey But Not Confused
Back in the day! You know, it's bizarre because I when I look back at the films I made at uni, I had Daisy Hills Production as as my name. This is before I started the agency and registering at Companies House. If my memory serves me, obviously my surname's Hills. And I I think it's because I love ‘Dazed and Confused’, the film. I think that's why, I think I just took that because I thought initially Daisy Hills, you know, spelled like the flower is quite cute because I wanted to have a bit of me in there, but I didn't want to be like Abbie Hills and Associates because when I was going for that kind of studio model, I wanted it to sound a bit production company like. So yeah, I think it's because I just love ‘Dazed And Confused’. Then I wanted a bit of me in there. And so it was the Daisy Hills company for, oh seven years and then I keep talking about it but turning 30 I feel like really, like my brain chemistry just changed and it was leading up to my birthday and I was like I love my job, still love my agency itself, love my clients but something about the branding. I was like oh I don't like that anymore. I think I've outgrown it a little bit. So Daisy Talent just made sense and I think it opens me up in the future if I ever wanted to circle back and represent you know, people other than actors. I’ve got a couple of clients now in the kind of entertainment space but they're very much still on camera talent but, yeah when I sort of did all the rebrand myself and it was Daisy Talent I was like ooh, glossy, I like it! And it just felt right and I think after seven years I think I was getting the seven-year itch. I think that's what was happening, so I needed a little vibe change.
