Episode 17 / Casting Director Jo Stanhope
/by Roj Whitelock
London-based photographer and HSM Associate Member
Casting Director Jo Stanhope talks in-depth about her route into the industry, the role of a casting director, the importance of casting to a production and where actors really need to focus to improve their casting opportunities.
Note: View on YouTube for captions.
"...this TV show that I'm doing at the moment, it's period. It's brutal. It's about the iron industry...we want to see real people...sometimes it's those little quirks..the way someone curls their lip, that little crooked tooth...the way their eyes just crease when they laugh...that's how we need Hannah to look."
Jo Stanhope
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Bringing The Right People Together
Yeah, no problem. I started modelling when I was 14 in London. By the time I was 18, and to give you a very quick synopsis, I was kind of over it. So I came out of London, moved back to the Shire, and started my own agency, which I still have today, AMM. From there, I very quickly realised that casting was something I was naturally able to accomplish well, and building great relationships with clients was my thing. Obviously, producing came into that as well, but casting was my nook, if you like — putting the right people in front of the right people. And that's it to date. From there, I naturally progressed into film. It was a natural progression for me to transition into film, and I'm currently on my 10th film and loving every minute of it. You know, they say if you love what you do, you never work a day in your life, and there's nothing truer for me. So, loving the journey I'm on at the moment.
It's All About The Brief
That's a really good question, actually, because I think that I'm quite niche in what I do. What I learned really quickly whilst modelling is that I would be one of 50 girls at a casting, and I would look at the brief and often be told, "Well, you're not right. You're not the right size. You don't have the right hair colour." And I'm thinking, gosh, these agents are just filling these studios with people. They're not actually reading a brief. Whereas what I do as a model agent before going into film and casting films is I read that brief, and I may only send three, five people max, but you will really struggle to choose between them because they will fit your brief. That is my niche. I work really closely with the talent on accents and everything, every little bit, because I'm like, well, I've been given a brief. I'm a Virgo, and we are so straight down the line. I'm integrated with those details, and my clients respond really well to that. They appreciate it because time is wasted, and that's not the talent's fault because they're just going dutifully to a job, as I did as a model. I would just go along with my trainers and my shoes in my bag, and I'd turn up there willing, bright-eyed, and ready to go, only to be told that I don't fit the brief. And I'd think, but I've been sent here. So that's what I took from that, and I think that's a really valuable asset of mine. I do think it makes me slightly different in this forum that I am in presently. I'm almost making it difficult for them in that sense, because I will just sink into that brief and think, what exactly are they after? Then I work really hard. And sometimes, yes, sometimes it's really difficult. I'm like, I'm sorry, I don't have anybody that fits your brief, because I don't have anybody that fits their brief. And it's okay to not have someone that fits a brief. I would rather be celebrated as a casting director or as a casting professional for someone who really listens, sees, and hears my client than just sends you 200 people in an afternoon and chews up your time. And it's an expensive business. When you're there, when you're in the trenches casting, it's long days. These poor guys, they're queuing up to come in. They think this is their minute, their 15 minutes, and it breaks my heart because I was on the other side of that as a model. Ok, I'm not an actor. I could never do what they do, and gosh, my hat is off to them. But I understand that, and it can be really brutal out there. It really chips away at your soul when you've had five castings in one day and you've not got one bite. For me, I was with a really big agency, so I was very lucky. I felt at the time to be with such a prestigious agency. Don't get me wrong, I had some great work, and it really did pave my way and give me the attributes that I genuinely think were already in me, obviously, but they gave me the ingredients, the building blocks, to go, actually, this is how I want to do it. That's not because I think you're bad at it, but I've taken the good bits and I've driven it and then made it my own. And I might be speaking for all casting directors right now, but I can only speak for myself and my process. You know, it's exhausting casting loads of people that don't fit because you've got to give them their little airtime. And also, they're out there trying to pay their rent, their mortgages, feed a family in some cases. You need to be mindful. For me, as a casting director, I have to be mindful of that. So, yeah, I have no problem saying, "I can't help you on this occasion. I'm sorry." And then I'll happily recommend other casting directors that might, because again, I'm no gatekeeper of this. You know, we're all in it together. But yeah, that's my process, my thought, and the drive I have as a casting director, and that's why I think it's my nook, if you like.
Heart and Soul
So, I have done everything from micro-budget to million-pound budgets, everything in between, and I love both sides of that spectrum. Things I'm super proud of — I did a biopic last year, my first biopic, and it was so incredibly rewarding because you are casting real people. They not only have to be able to act and show their talent and be talented, but they also need to look and be like the said character. These characters, it was a boxing film, were very famous in their own right. Bigger than most actors because of who they are. We're talking about some of the greatest boxers, I'm talking about these guys, you know. It was emotional, it was beautiful, and it was so rewarding. I'm super proud of that. Super proud of that. But I'm proud of every job I've done, actually, because I put my heart and soul into it. But that, as a casting director, is probably the one thing that I just -I threw myself into. I gave it hundreds and hundreds of hours, working one-on-one with every actor, talking about dialect, sending them clips of the real-life boxer, and just working with them tirelessly over weekends. I've come away with friends that I will have for life, people that I love and feel like I've known all my life, even though I've only known them a matter of years. Going to weddings, celebrating the birth of their children — it's just a beautiful, beautiful platform. So, I'm actually really proud of that. Proud of everything. But if I was to name one thing, I hold my heart in that job. I really do. It is more than a job. I say that frequently to anyone who's not tired of hearing me say it. I love what I did there, but I also love what they gave back because it's not just about me. It's everything about them. I give them — it's all in them — and all I can do is be the best I can be. But I like to see it through. I don't just take a pay cheque and go, "That's me done, onto the next." I'm invested at that point. Which is why I love actually going into the production side, where I can, on said production, straight afterwards because I'm not done at that point. I just want to see it through to the end. I want to wrap with them. I want to be in the trenches on set with them as a creative producer. That's what I would do, which still marries itself with casting because I'll speak with them, work with them on dialect, and bring a dialect coach in. So, as a creative producer, it sits so comfortably with being a casting director. And I was told years ago that you've got to pick a lane. Why? Why have you got to pick a lane? I'm good at all of that, and I love that. People respond to me, and the proof is in the pudding. That really is.
Invest In Yourself
So, for me, I'm quite a black-and-white person. I think the acting platforms are brilliant, so it's important that if you're self-repped, you're on those platforms. I'm talking about all the platforms. I don't know if I can name platforms, but you've got your Spotlight, you've got your V Showcards, and then there's Backstage — there's so many of them. Getting yourself on there and representing yourself, making sure that you've got everything if you're self-repping - but equally, your agent — a good agent will be out there repping for you and just making sure that everything's up to date. If you're a great horse rider, let it be known. If you've got all these languages, let it be known. If you do combat, let it be known, because it's information. Knowledge is power, right? Especially in the casting world. I know that I'm not different to all casting directors because that would be ridiculous to say that, but I very much want to watch a showreel. I might not watch it in the time that it's intended, but I will go through the whole three and a half minutes because I might not find what I find in the first two minutes, but I might get that last 30 seconds and think, "That is what I need. That is a person - that's how I need you to be."
So, making sure that your information, your material, your headshots are up to date. It is hard for all of us when we meet a person and go, "Oh, you don't quite look like your pictures. Oh, your showreel's quite out of date, isn't it?" And it's sort of like — it needs to be true. It's your calling card, you know. It's your it is your calling card. So, that's super important. So that is for me, as I would say to the models back in the day, I'd say, look, you've got to invest in yourself. You know, you are your investment. So you've got to make sure that your headshots are up to date, that you're doing test shots when you can. Just keep everything fresh. Photographers, clients, agents, directors don't want to be seeing the same material coming back. And we do. We see a lot of material that's been, you know, 10 years later. I saw that 10 years ago. I need to see some up-to-date stuff. Even if you're going off and doing some shooting that isn't film related. Just get yourself in front of the camera. Be fluid. Show all your, you know, your versatile sides because it it's really really important. But it is a not all the time, but I do find sometimes it's like, right, I want to make this money and this is what I want to do. I'm done. No, no, no. It doesn't stop there. You've got to keep on going. You have got to invest. You've got to invest. And it is hard because you've still got to pay the mortgage, still got to pay your rent, still got kids school fees, run the car, food, shopping, all of that jazz. So, it is hard, but it is an investment. You are your investment. So, it's super important to keep that tight and up to date. You you get blind to it. Um, I casted a job. I'm casting a really big TV show. It's going to be three seasons. It's going to be enormous. Um, and we've made the decision to do a bit of a Game of Thrones thing where we want to take actors and bring them up because there's so much talent out there. I put 12 characters out. I am going to say that 40%, forget the gender, so male or female, they will apply for every same sex that they can. I'm like, well, how can that be David and and also Kevin? They're wildly different. you know, they they're different characters and you know, your showreel doesn't show that. We get that. We get that a lot. And it's hard because it's it's hours hours spent going through these because you want to give everyone the air time to make sure that you've looked at I mean, we got 9,000 applicants in three days for that. But a lot of that was repetition, repetition, repetition. A lot of these guys I'd seen before and their material hadn't been updated. doesn't mean that they're not great and they probably will be great for something, but I need something fresh. You know, the the brief, you can imagine my briefs are really tight. You know, I work on brief. So, I wrote this brief and it was so detailed. It was so specific of what I needed and it was, yeah, it was like - so, I've got it down from 9,000. I've got it down to 52 people. Yeah. took me two weeks of not doing anything else [laughter] but watching showreels and just obviously deleting the ones I'm like well you're the wrong sex so you come out of this pile but you know stuff like that but yeah you've got to invest and it sounds expensive it doesn't need to be expensive you know get out there get some headshots do some work do do some shorts you know just get yourself out but the material is king it's key.
We Need To See You
Yeah I mean it doesn't happen as much these is because people have got a lot better. There's a lot - it's better. But my biggest pet hate has been for 30 years of doing this is when something comes in so studio, so heavily made up. So you've taken a person girl next door and then she comes out looking like she work she was in a pageant and it's - I can't, I can't because I need to see, I want to see the skin. And I want it to be, you know, we none of us really love seeing ourselves in the daylight. Oh my gosh, is that what I actually look like? But as you know, that's what we need to see. We need to see you. By all means, have some lovely glam stuff in there. But it can't be it can't be the first thing that we see because sadly when you are when you're up against it and you've got 9,000 applicants in you know you know you're running a project and you're going go not right not right not right because you haven't got time to go right back to the archive and that's what you look like and that is exactly what we need. We need to see you. So we need fresh looks, you know, nothing too heavily done over. You know, if we're going to do you up, we'll do you up. You know, that's what the film's for. You know, if we want you to look like, you know, an a particular era, then we will. But we need to see your skin. [laughter] Really important. Really, really important. And also the touching up of images, big no no. You know, don't get me wrong, little tweak here and there never hurt anybody, but it has to be a true representation of what you will look like when you walk in to your casting because, you know, if you're going to get a call back, that's what you're aiming for, right? You want to be on that shortlist. You want to be called back in, but it puts you on the back for you know, they could probably come in and do the best read for you, but instantly you're kind of going like this. And I've recently I've had this, I've gone. I'm I'm so sorry. I think I'm sorry. What's your name? Yes. Thank you. I thought it was you, Amelia. Thinking doesn't [ __ ] look like Amelia, [laughter] you know. And it wasn't Amelia, by the way. I changed names. But, you know, and it's like, oh my god. So, instantly that's what's in your mind and you're not actually looking at what said actor is then giving you. And it's like, but you don't look like we need you to look like that. Not like, oh, golly, you know, so it's like, oh, okay, because it's the age thing, and I get that being someone of an age, you know, in this young person's industry, if you like. I get that. I totally get that. You know, I'm often going, "Yeah, could you just get a rid of a couple of years off those eyes?" You know, we do it, but I'm not [laughter] an actor. I can do that. You know, I need to see, we need to see, but we want the character. We want that. You know, if you're casting like what this TV show that I'm doing at the moment, you know, it's period. It's brutal. It's about the iron industry, you know, it's like they weren't in glam, you know, there will be no glam, you know, we want to see real people. We just want you for your talent, you know, and it's that I think it's a confident and I do get it to a degree. I do. But yeah, it's a big problem in our world. It's that Roj, that is so true. You know, sometimes it's those little quirks. It's those little, you know, the way someone curls their lip, that little crooked tooth, or I don't know, just all these gorgeous little things. The way their eyes just crease when they laugh, or this ridiculously big [feature] that's just like, that's how we need Hannah to look. And it's sort of like, you've just nailed it. That's how I want you to be. But then they're really self-conscious about it because we live in a synthetic world. Suddenly, like you rightly said, we do this, we put a filter on, we go, "Oh my God, I'm gorgeous," you know, then you post it and you get a million likes and it's brilliant. You feel electric, but really, people love you either way. The right people will love you either way. Then the people that are just loving that are just not your people, right? And it's the same for the casting world. We just want... there's so many gorgeous little things that people do that we love about them that they hate about themselves, and we're like, "Please do that. That's how we want her to be." And they're like, "Really?" And you can just see them grow in that. But you do get actors that come through that just totally embrace that, and doing the biopic actually really made me see that. That's why I think I fell in love so much with that project because it was raw. It was a difficult subject, and I was so in awe of these actors who were so beautiful, came in and had all the glam side of it, and then had to do the non-glam side of it. I'm like, "Wow, you wow me." You know, love hearts in my eyes.
Never Fake It To Make It
It's a really interesting question actually, because mainly it is brief. So if I'm looking for somebody, if I'm looking for someone with dark hair, then all the blondes and redheads are out straight away. It doesn't mean that their shots aren't great, but they're out straight away. I know we can dye hair, but if we're talking about something where we haven't got all the resources at hand, let's make it basic for now. That's interesting for me I struggle when, talking about females, I see a lot of false lashes and a lot of falsified looks because I need to know what someone looks like. Going back to what we said, I need to know what someone looks like. Equally, if it's a guy and I'm thinking, "Well, you're playing a 60-year-old, but you're definitely not looking 60 in this because the hair, the beard's dyed, the hair's dyed," like that. So I think it's kind of growing gracefully with your looks is quite important. Don't get me wrong, we all like to titivate, but I think that's actually very important. I think natural, for me — and I speak for myself, other people will have different opinions on this — but for myself, I think natural is better. Having that clean look initially, because you'll have many pictures, but your thumbnail, the one that we're going to see, that's going to hit me initially, I want it as natural as possible. If your playing age is a certain age, I want you to look that age. I don't want to go in and then think, "Oh, actually, that is your age, but wow, you've had a lot of work done," or whatever. It doesn't marry. So your playing age needs to be dropped on Spotlight or wherever at that point if that's where you're going. I think for me that's really, really important. For period stuff that I'm doing at the moment, we want people to look like they are from that era. They won't have the big lips and the false eyelashes and the porcelain face because they've got to farm, their kids down the iron mine. They live a hard life, man. It has to be able to fall into that field. So for me, fresh faces, lower your acting age if you wish to go there, and just be as natural as you can if you want to go into that serious playground. You have to slip, you have to click, which is interesting. I'm trying to work out whether it's a good or bad thing right now because I'm trying to work that out for myself. I do do that because, like I said earlier, I look at every image because I might not find what I'm looking for there, but I might have three minutes into the showreel. I pride myself on that because I think that's the right thing to do for me. Equally, I understand that lots of times you don't have the luxury of those man-hours. On this particular job, I haven't got a casting team at the moment, so it's all me at this time, and it chews up every weekend because I have to honour these. I had to close a lot of these campaigns early because of the volume I'm getting through, just so I can play catch-up and go, "Right, 9,000's enough. I need to work through this." So try not to be too precious about that. You might not like it, but if your agent's telling you that's the shot, listen to your agent. An agent worth their salt will be giving you the right advice about what image to put up there. Equally, your homegrown images are not cutting it because they are filtered and they aren't professional enough. You need to invest in yourself. Get out there, get some nice clean headshots done. It's super, super important.
Casting Counts
Starting with the consequences of getting it wrong: I won't mention the project because it's not yet hit. It's going to be a theatrical release. However, getting it wrong can ruin a whole scene. By someone being put into a place and then realising that they're front-facing quite a prolific actor, and then realising that everything about their tiny part in this is so wrong — and not necessarily their fault — it could be many factors as to why they've been put in. It can trash a whole scene. It's a lot of editing, and it's very difficult to sometimes edit around these things. There's nothing worse than shooting something and then your scene not quite making it, just ending up on the cutting room floor. Obviously, there are different layers to casting. You've got your above-the-line casting, which is basically what the casting director would generally do, but then you've got all the other casting, which would fall into the AD department, and that department's really important as well. The second AD would be really working hard at getting these right people in, and that can't be something that's jogged. You can't jog along with that. You've got to really work, you've got to really think about that, because these are the actors that will be in a scene with your number one and might actually not be quite up to the job. Not because they're terrible, but it's just they're not the right person for the job. So that is super important. Casting can be a bit of an unsung hero because no one goes, "Oh, great casting." Very rarely someone goes, "Oh, great casting." It's great when it does happen. But it is so important because you've got all these other amazing things put in place, and then that one scene doesn't work because of this, and that's all we've got because that sets up this scene and you can't cut it out. It's got to be used. A lot of money is spent trying to fudge around things like that. But equally, getting it so right just elevates. You can take a low-budget small production and, with the right casting, just make it something so magnificent. You think, "Oh my gosh, this must have cost millions." Absolutely not. But this is a really great production, fantastic director, the writing is incredible, and the casting just brings it out because it all works together. It's a team thing. You can't do it without any of those elements in film. They're all really, really important.
But yes, casting is often never celebrated, but when it is, it's brilliant. It's great. We love it. We'll take what we can.
Top 3 Tips
Keep your headshots - (very important) - and your showreel up to date. Do as much, if you have to do the free work to keep it all fresh and present and current, then do it, because you are investing in yourself. Get yourself out there. Be seen. Go to the exhibitions, the expos, the actors' expos, and all the wonderful things that are available to us. You know, Raindance are amazing. Get yourself out there, be seen, be willing. If you're self-repped, then be your own best representation. Have a look at who's casting what. Send them a little note. You might not always get an answer, but it's just good to put yourself there. Don't hound people, but get yourself out there. Don't be shy to do that. Equally, be on your agent's case. They're representing lots of people. They're doing the best they can. There's a lot to be done out there. But put yourself forward. CC them into the emails. You're not being underhand by doing that; it's really helpful. Often I will go, "Ashley, yeah, I got an email last week. He's perfect for this." And then I'll message him and message his agent and go, "Thank you for sending me that. This is exactly what we're looking for right now." So, just get yourself out there. Don't be shy. I mean, don't be annoying, but don't be shy to put yourself out there. Do get to premieres and do go and support independent film. It's so important. There's loads of great filmmakers out there doing wonderful things, and they're pleading, they're begging for people to come along and help and be seen and work. Yes, it's not going to be your Equity rates, but you're out there working with like-minded people. It's so important. I'm on a super low-budget project at the moment in between two massive million-pound films because I love the director. I'm loving it. He's like, "Why are you doing this?" I went, "Because you're brilliant and this script is amazing. Why would I not want to do this in between two films? I'm not doing anything right now. I'm casting stuff, but I want to be on this." So even somebody who's got 32 years in the industry doing this, I'm still out there doing that. I'm still out there hustling, if you like, going to these premieres, hanging out with these amazing writers and directors, because we're in it together, guys. It's independent film. Let's celebrate each other and support each other. So that's my advice. It's probably more than three points, but I could talk about this for hours. I could literally sit here for the next three hours talking about this, Roj. But it is, I mean, I had an actor this week who bought a ticket to a premiere for a director who's doing a mid-range - it's under a million; it's under 500 actually. But she's bought the ticket, and I was actually thinking of her for a role. He calls me this week and goes, "So-and-so just bought a ticket." I said, "Oh yeah, yeah, we're going to hang out at the premiere." He goes, "Just bumped her up to VIP, Jo, and yes, she can do that role that you've put her forward for." So this is what I like, because there were three people in the running for that, but she just catapulted herself because this is what it's about. We need to support each other. I'm going to support you, you're supporting me. We are in this together. We all want to do the same thing, right? Let's help each other.
So those are my many advices.
